文字版：2017年4月28日郭先生接受BBC采訪的視頻

文字版：2017年4月28日郭先生接受BBC采訪的視頻

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQkLRKUydNI&t=176s

 战友之声翻译组

Ms. Hu Shuli is a controversial figure.

She is well known internationally,

both as one of the “50 Stars of Asia” by Business Week in 2001,

and one of the Times “100 Influential People”,

yet still regarded as “The Most Dangerous”

Woman in China by others.

Is she the self-professed “fighter for democracy and freedom” she claims to be? A “fighter for human rights”,

“defender of law”? And what is her relationship with Mr. Guo Wengui, who she has dubbed the “power hunter”?

Others have suggested she is aligned with the CCP

a master manipulator of the global media,

whose multi-faceted deceptions run deep into the Chinese system,

able to control great wealth whilst maintaining as stranglehold on the press

Is Mr. Guo Wengui the vulture, or the prey?

Today we seek to uncover Ms. Hu Shuli's true role in the media

Who is the vulture？

Who is the hunter?

啊，這個我本人首先我向BBC的所有觀眾，向各位你們問好

Oh, first let me extend a warm greeting to our audience from the BBC.

我本人的資產沒有，是零，還是負資產

I have no assets at all, to be precise, I am in negative equity.

我的家族信託基金控制資產在280億美金

The assets controlled by my Family Trust Fund amount to 28 billion dollars (USD),

不包含國內的1200億人民幣的資產

excluding the domestic assets of 120 billion RMB（Renminbi）

那現在您的財富，有麻煩的部分是在中國？

So Is it the domestic part of your portfolio that is in trouble?

全是在國內的，全是在國內的

It is the domestic part,

是1200億人民幣

Valued at 120 billion RMB

那最近又什麼消息麼？

Has there been any recent developments?

最近還是有不好的消息

Unfortunately, there has been some difficulties.

因為我的爆料吧，國內的這些

Due to my revealing some secrets, every aspect

各個方面都給我施壓

of my life has been subject to increased pressure domestically

本來是要妥善解決的，現在因為爆料導致了復雜的情況

This has resulted in a complicated situation, whereas the matter was supposed to have been resolved previously.

國內的資產因為第二期爆料當中很明確，就是阻止我爆料

Apparently, they exert pressure on my domestic assets to prohibit me from revealing more secrets(again).

如果第二期繼續爆的話，說是對我家人會採取不利的手段

If I go on to do so, I was told that my family would be treated unfavorably.

可能再把我家人，很多放出來的人要抓回去

My family, and the people who were released, or people of a wider scope, would probably be put under arrest again

包括對我的資產要進行拍賣，所謂的拍賣

This includes selling my assets at auction, their so-called auction

甚至是通過法律手段，通過依法的手段

Selling or handling, my assets at auction by means of law,

實際上是非法的目的了，把我的資產

in order to achieve their unlawful aims

拍賣啊，或者處理掉，這是他們想的

is what they truly want,

昨天晚上的時候，我們的員工、律師

Last night ,our staff and lawyer were informed about

被叫到北京市三中院（第三中級人民法院）

an auction at The Third Intermediate People's Court of Beijng

就是通知我們要拍賣我們的，當時涉及的一個叫

We were informed that our Zhong Tai Trust, which is worth one billion (RMB)

中泰信託十億的這麼一個標的

will be placed up for sale in auction

但是擔保了42套盤古公寓的房子

It was assured that 42 sets of houses of Pangu Plaze.

這個價值實際上是60億，

Which were equivalent to 6 billion dollars, were mortgaged

據說這房產呢，這個財務的標的實際上是被

There were actually bought by a Hong Kong

香港的一家上市公司，叫嘉年華給買走了

listed company called Carnival Group

嘉年華的老闆，就是我們曾慶淮先生的女兒叫曾寶寶

Zeng Baobao, the daughter of  Mr.zeng Qinghuai ,
is the boss of Carnival Group

他是前國家副主席曾慶紅先生的弟弟

Mr. Zeng Qinghuai is the younger brother of Mr. Zeng Qinghong,

這也就是他的侄女兒

the former Vice President of China
So, Zeng Baobao is Mr. Zeng Qinghong’s niece

所以從這點你可以看的出來，外界說我是曾慶紅的背景

Therefore, it is definitely wrong to associate me

這是肯定不對的

with Zeng Qinghong from this point of view

同時昨天也看到了北京方正證券的上市公司的公告

Meanwhile, yesterday I saw the Founder Securities Company Limited Listed companies notice

就是取消政泉公司在方正證券董事會的投票權和收益權

It was about the cancellation of voting and income rights of the Beijing Zenith Holdings at
Founder Securities Company Limited,

並起訴我們，這是同一天的行動

and that they are suing us. These two actions were carried out on the same day in order

這是要剝奪我們政泉置業，在方正證券的一切權益

to deprive the Beijing Zenith Holdings of any rights at Founder Securities Company Limited.

這個目的很簡單，就是阻止我，不讓我再繼續爆料

The aim was, simply, to prohibit me from revealing any more secrets.

記者

者意圖有什麼深的含義呢，就像您前兩集在網上

What are the implications of this move? For example,

視頻裡透露了很多東西

your previous two videos revealed a great deal, and you touched on quite a lot of issues.

視頻裡，您也說了，受到很大壓力

You mentioned in the videos that you are under a lot of pressure.

中國現在最新發生的事情，是不是當局已經把妥協

From what has happened recently in China,

折中的一些空間給堵死了

is it fair to say that the authorities have killed any opportunity for compromise?

說明您在國內已經沒有迴旋的餘地了呢？

In other words, you have no means to negotiate in China?

拍賣您的資產，去掉方正政泉的股份

Selling your assets at auction will eradicate any shares in Founder Securities Company Limited

郭文貴先生：

事實上，在一期爆料之前，已經一直在跟我接觸
In fact, prior to revealing any secrets, I was consistently approached.

我們在倫敦有過兩次見面，和中紀委、公安部、政法委派來的人

During the two meetings with the representatives of the Central Commission for Discipline Inspection,

這談判當中很明確就是希望我配合，同時我就不要發聲

The Ministry of Public Security, the Ministry of Public Security (MPS) and the Central Political

然後他們想要我的一些東西

And Legal Affairs Commission in London, it was clear from the negotiation that they wanted me to cooperate to not to speak out, and that they also want certain things from me.

這要的東西，我在第一集、第二集已經說到了

Regarding the things they want, I made it very clear that I do not have what they wanted,

我說我根本沒有，但他們不信

However, they didn’t believe me.

後來，我在明鏡電視，有了第一集的爆料

After I revealed some information, through Mingjing Media,

第一集爆料之後，他們當然很不高興

It was clear that they were not happy.

也採取了一些措施，但是，還是按照第一集之前的情況下

They adopted some measures. However, compared to how things were before the revelations,

還是往前有點推進的，最起碼我女兒回來了嘛

the situation has improved. At least my daughter has returned.

公司各個方面，專案組也撤出去了

The Special Investigating Team (SIT) also withdrew from all aspects of the company.

但是第二集爆料，特別是阻止對傅政華先生的爆料

However, when I spoke out for a second time, I did take their advice about

當時我是聽了，但是畢竟我說出了賀國強先生

not revealing Mr. Fu Zhenghua’s secrets into account.

還有李源潮先生等一些爆料

However, I still managed to reveal certain things about Mr. He Guoqiang and Mr. Li Yuanchao.

他們說很不高興的

They were very upset.

我的老領導也不高興啊

My veteran leader was upset too,

在這種情況下，他們說那麼那你必須從現在不能再說話了

Under these circumstances, they told me that I must not speak out from now on,

也不要再發Twitter 了

or continue to use twitter.

大家都知道，從二集以後我還是繼續發Twitter

Everyone knows that I continue to post updates on Twitter even after the second round of revelations.

我在他們背信棄義的情況下，又繼續到我公司進行盤問員工，

They continue to be deceitful, as well as continuing to examine my staff at my company.

威脅的情況下，我馬上爆了第三期，我給了預告了時間

I intend to reveal a third round of secrets, and I have already given out a preliminary announcement.

而且明確，我一定要對傅政華先生，我提供指控證據

I made it very clear that I targeted Mr. Fu Zhenghua, I have provided evidence regarding his charges.

那麼北京我的老領導，還有有關部門都非常不高興

Therefore, my senior leader in Beijing and

已經跟我斷了所有的聯繫

some other units concerned were very unhappy. They have broken off all contact with me.

現在呢，就是要求我不能爆料，然後要讓我看一看

As for now, they continue to ask that I don’t reveal any more.

郭文貴，現在就對你的資產進行全面處理

Then they tell me to watch how they will completely take care of my, Gou Wengui’s assets.

記者

你講老領導，現在已經成為繼郭文貴先生之後，
The veteran leader you mentioned previously has

另外一個網絡，也算是名人啦

now become another internet celebrity like you.

他也是個非常神秘的人物，這就讓我們的觀眾，

He is also an extremely mysterious person.

可能想到在中國的商場上做生意時一種什麽情況

Our audiences can probably imagine how running a business in China would be.

大家可以想像吧，就是說，您在前面講的你爆料的目的

It’s very easy to imagine, based on what you’ve said,

是保命，保錢，然後復仇

just why you reveal what you do: firstly, to secure your life and property; secondly, for revenge

那現在公開的講話您是反應一種什麽情況

So, what are you trying to respond to, what is your aim,

或者達到什麽様的目的

By speaking in public now?

郭文贵：

第一集的保命保錢報仇啊，是我一個個人的目標
At first it was to secure my life, my property, and for revenge.

從第一集第二集播出以後，引起這反響在我預料之中

After the first and second broadcasts, I expected this sort of reaction.

但在很多人預料之外

However, it exceeded many people’s expectations.

引起的反響是多層面的

It has had wide ranging implications.

特別是對大家都關注的現在反腐敗當中體現的，以警反腐

In particular, these injustices, such as feigned and misjudged cases resulting from the anti- corruption force

以黑反腐這導致的冤假錯案，包括以黑反腐導致的一種新的腐敗

and anti-corruption police corruption. These cases are embodied in the anti-corruption campaigns which concern everyone.

毫不誇張的說，這一次腐敗當中所誕生的腐敗

It would be no exaggeration to say that this new kind of corruption is so huge that it is far beyond

新的腐敗遠遠超過這次打擊腐敗所有財務標訂的目標

the sum of the targets of the current anti-corruption campaign

我認為是這様子的，特別是，我掌握的一些証據

I believe in this. I have evidence that supports what I say. The extant of the corruption is significant, amounting to.

在這個反腐敗的幾個權力，最重要的幾個領導當中

hundreds of billions approximately, chiefly by several main authorities.

幾個人腐敗的金額都是幾千億的

amongst them authorities of the anti-corruption campaign

對人權、人性這種摧殘，我在明鏡第一集和第二集都說到了

I mentioned how this is a detriment to human rights and humanity in general.

這個用語言都是無法形容的

I don’t even have the words to express this.

比如我說過，把女員工放在椅子上，拷兩三天

For example, I have spoken of a female employee who was placed on a chair and handcuffed for two to three days.

然後把手伸到人家褲襠裏，去摸人家的隂部，問人家尿了沒有

They then touched her vagina through her trousers and asked her if she had wet herself.

然後幾個男人，幾個警察讓一個女孩脫光，要檢查她的身體

After that, several male policemen forced her to strip naked in order to check her body.

讓男孩子，戴上腳鐐手銬以後，在那手淫給他們看

Boys were handcuffed and forced to show the policemen how they masturbate.

這個國內的情況在國內都是有消息的

There is news internally about such happenings.

嗯，都是有來源

Yes, there are sources.

這個反腐運動

This an anti-corruption campaign

我認為反腐大家都是支持的

I think that everybody supports this anti-corruption campaign.

習主席的這個反腐，我相信，對國，對當

I believe that President Xi’s Anti-corruption campaign is beneficial to the country.

對目前對社會都是好的

the party and to contemporary society.

但是最大的問題，他這個反腐運動已經被別人利用了

The main problem, however, is that President Xi’s Anti-corruption campaign is exploited.

被別人綁架了

or hijacked by other people.

那麽，現在真正背後很深層次的背景

So, we can build up a picture deeper picture of what happening,

咱們在爆料中會逐漸地揭露出來

and gradually expose the truth

您提的這個老領導，是不是在中國做到您這個層次的商人

With respect to the senior leader you mentioned,

必須得有一些政界的聯繫

Is it true that a businessman must acquire a political network.

這是一種中國商場一種凖則，大家都這麽做是不是

This is a normality of doing business in China. Doesn’t everybody do it?

大家都有，背後有……

They all have political networks, even hidden ones…

這様說法，是不凖確

To put it this way, is not strictly accurate.

在哪個國家，政府和我們這樣納稅過百億的企業

A government would always have contacts with enterprises like us.

都會有一些聯繫，有關係

Those who pay over ten billions taxes, no matter in which country.

這個老領導，就是當時政府的認識我的人

This veteran leader was the governmental representative knew me then

對我也表示過讚賞，對我企業一點兒經濟關係也沒有

He appreciated what I did, however he did not have any economic relations with my enterprise.

那麼他現在是一個我能基本信賴的人

He is the only one I believe in right now

李友背後這些政治局常委員股東、常委股東

Those members of the Politburo and the members of the Standing Committee supporting Li You,

包括現在公檢法和紀委專案的人呢

currently include officials from the Ministry of Public Security, the People’s Procuratorate and the court

他能說上話，溝通，實際上，他是一個和平的勸說者

He becomes the bridge for communication. He is a peaceful persuader.

或者調節者，他不代表任何權力

Or Mediator. In fact, he does not represent any authorities

那就是，您認為國內的些腐敗的，黑暗的情況

What would you consider the main part of the corruption, or the dark side? What are the problems of the business world?

主要是什麼，就是商場上的問題，商場官商勾結是怎麼樣

In what manner does the collusion between businessmen and government officials take place?

還是怎麼形容呢

How would you describe it?

我覺得，中國不存在官商勾結

I think there is no such thing as collusion between businessmen and government officials.

說中國官商勾結

It would be thinking too highly of Chinese businessmen

太看得起中國的商人了

to suggest a situation of collusion between businessmen and government officials

中國的官和商的關係，我覺得

The relationship between the businessmen and the officials in China

就像一個夜總會裡面小姐和媽咪的關係

to me, is more like to the relationship between the prostitutes and procurers of the nightclub.

我認為是這種關係，小姐是被迫來的

I feel that in such kind of relationship, the prostitutes are forced to take part.

現在是，媽咪要來抓反腐，小姐只能是被動的

So, if the procurer intends to implement anti-corruption

官商之間，基本上所有私人企業今天都非常困難

the prostitutes are passive agents. In general, all private enterprises are in a difficult position in the context of such a relationship.

官商之間，基本上所有私人企業今天都非常困難

Such as between the businessmen and the officials.

沒有獨立性，沒有決策權

There are no independence nor decision-making rights.

而且官方讓你幹什麼，你必須幹什麼

You are required to follow official orders.

勾結基本上還是一種相對的關係

Collusion is still a relative relation basically.

中國的私營企業，連小三都算不上，這就是悲劇角色

The private enterprises in China cannot even be defined as mistresses, they are simply tragic roles.

但是，中國是不是有一些媒體監督

However, doesn’t China have certain media watchdogs.

比如財經方面的媒體，有一些獨立的聲音在反應這些情況

such as the financial media, or certain independent media who work to report on such situations?

您怎麼看呢？這方面

What is your opinion?

中國反腐運動當中

The antic corruption campaign has aroused many problems.

之所以出現那麼多問題

There are many problems aroused from the anti-corruption campaign.

很重要的一個原因是，就是缺乏媒體的監督

One of the main reasons is that there is a lack of media watchdogs.

這就沒有了依法治國，治理的“治”，的起碼基礎了，因為它沒有監督

Rule by law cannot be implemented due to the absence of its groundwork: monitoring.

而就是沒有監督，才造成了黑箱作業，以警治國

Such absence of media watchdogs results in black box operations,

以警反腐，以黑反腐的這種的事情就發生了

and hence the presence of rule by the police, anti-corruption against the police, anti-corruption against gangs 

比如說，就是稍有幾個可以發生的媒體，也基本上是被操縱的

For example, the limited media permitted to speak out, are in fact, being controlled.

也都是假新聞和假資訊，那麼這個沒有監督

They are all partaking in the creation of fake news, and both the absence of monitors and

又是加監督，這對社會的傷害和知情權，那是完全是相反的方向

fake monitoring are harmful to our society. They violate the public’s right to knowledge and information

那這具體是什麼？

Can you be more specific?

你比如說，《財新》雜誌，胡舒立女士

For example, the Caixin magazine, Ms. Hu Shuli, as you mentioned.

當初報導的，關於我《郭文貴，權力的獵手》

The previous report, concerning me, “Guo the Power Hunter”

這對我造成了致命的傷害

were fatal to me.

和海外他們控制的博訊等媒體

and the oversea media they controlled such as Boxun News.

像胡舒立所有的報導中，恰恰相反

It is exactly the opposite to what has been reported by Hu Shuli.

她真正是一個依仗權力發展的一個中國媒體，很強大的私人媒體

She is a strong private media outlet, someone who can be relied on to develop private media.

中國改革開放以來，你給我說一個，

Can you name me any state-owned media in China?

哪一個中國的國營的媒體被私人全部收購走的？

which has been privately purchased since the Chinese Economic Reform?

沒有，只有一家，就是她的《財經》雜誌和

No, none. There is only one,

當時的《中國改革開放》雜誌

her Caixin magazine and the Chinese Reform Magazine.

就是讓胡舒立女士和她在行內非常有影響力的丈夫

It is Ms. Hu Shuli, and her husband, Mr. Miao Di. Mr. Miao is very

Influential in the media industry,

叫苗棣先生，是中國廣電學院文學院的一個院長

And he is the Dean of the Faculty of Arts in The

Communication University of China.

利用他們手上的資源，將國有企業、國有媒體掠為己有

They manipulated their resources to make the state-owned enterprise

and media their own. However,

但是她所有的報道，看上去都是有關政治的報道

All her reports are political issues, in other words,

或者說是官方的一個唯一的代言人

She is the only official spokesmen.

那她為什麼有這個權力呢？

Why she is so powerful?

那很簡單。首先她就是權力的獵手,但很不幸的事情

This is simple. First, she is the power hunter. Unfortunately, I think

she is not qualified to be the power hunter.

我認為她都不配當權力的獵手

Since all those officials she reported on

因為她所有報道的權利的官員的腐敗

Who are involved in corruption are those minorities who were,

都是被中紀委雙規，或者是肯定被雙規的弱勢群體

or would surely be Shuang-gui (or “twin regulations”), an internal disciplinary process

conducted by the Central Commission for Discipline Inspection.

我認為她是權力的禿鷲

I think she is a vulture seeking authority:

她沒有報道過一個真正在職的中央政治局委員和常委

She has never reported any of the Members of the Standing Committee

of the Political Bureau of the CPC Central Committee, or Members of the Political

Bureau of the CPC Central Committee, who are in service.

 那麼，她實際上是某些政治家的工具

Therefore, she is indeed the tool of certain politicians

也就是贏者的工具，從來不是輸者的代言人和發聲，沒有公正性

or the winners; but she is never the spokesman of the loser,

There is no justice at all.

我插一句，你講到一些個人的細節

Let me say one thing here. You have mentioned some personal details,

我們有些東西還是沒法核實的，我們作為廣播方

Which we cannot verify as a broadcasting unit.

那麼就是說，您談到胡舒立這個人，實際上在英語主流媒體

In fact, Hu Shuli is thought of very highly by the

多年來，十幾年來對她評價是很高的

English language mainstream media for over a decade.

比如是說她是中國最有影響力的女人啊

For example, she is considered to be China’s most powerful woman,

亞洲最值得關注的50個女性之一，還有年度最佳的編輯

Included in the 50 Women to Watch in Asian, Editor of the year.

這個都是《華爾街時報》、《金融時報》、《商業週刊》提到的

She has been mentioned in The Wall Street Journal, Financial Times

and Business week

就是她在海外是很有影響，而且認可率是很高的

She has been recognized as being influential overseas,

A statement echoed in many outlets.

那麼您有沒有什麼具體的看法，就是您

Do you have any specific views on this?

說她是禿鷲，這個怎麼說具體這個支撐呢？

Just like you considered her a vulture? Do you have any supporting evidence?

胡舒立女士，是中國的所謂爆料媒體，或者財經專業

Ms. Hu Shuli, is the so called the China whistleblower.

She is almost the only person reporting financial issues,

還有涉及到官方的一些比較早的一些反腐資訊爆料的最主要媒體

and she was one of the first to reveal official

幾乎成了唯一了

antic corruption information.

成為唯一的事情，背後都有值得商榷的地方

To say she is the only one, is worthy of further discussion.

特別是我對胡舒立女士的瞭解，跟所有公眾對她的瞭解是不一樣的

I have particular views on Ms. Hu Shuli, which is quite different the public.

因為我是當事人，她是我的合夥人（李友）

She is the girlfriend of Li You, my partner.

他的女朋友，他倆有個不正常的男女關係

They are involved in an improper sexual relationship.

這是我說的，我負責任

I am responsible for what I say.

我在原來說過 同時胡舒立女士公司股權的來源，很清楚的

I have made this very clear, as well as where the equity

of Ms. Hu Shuli’s company is from, previously.

像你們BBC，你們不可能說你去幫你們的股東

Take the BBC as an example, you cannot help your shareholders and

Investors by attacking their competitors,

幫助你們的投資者，去報道另外一方去打擊

This is not fair. This is a public media, and as such they are to be held accountable.

這是不公平的，這是公眾媒體，公權力就失去了它的公正性了

However, my partner Li You,

而她本身，她的老闆，其中就有一個就是我的敵人，股東李友

Was one of the enemies of her boss.

那麼她對我的報道本身就是失去公正的

There is a lack of justice in her reports concerning me.

另外在海外這些名頭，所謂這些影響力，實際都是假的

Furthermore, all her overseas titles and power are all phony.

它主要是3個原因，國內的官方權力背景

There are three main factors.

給她造就了一些這樣的環境

The domestic official authority which works to create such conditions for her.

她才能這樣，否則她是不可能的

Otherwise this could never be possible.

第二個呢，她擁有國內別人沒有的一些資源

Secondly, she has access to some unique resources.

她先生苗棣先生，是中國廣電學院文學院的院長

Her husband, Mr. Miao Di, is the Dean of the Faculty of Arts in Communication University of China.

她本身有在這個領域那麼多年了，還有她背後的政治老闆

She has been working in this area for many years, and the political director behind her,

是現在中央的常委之一，現任常委之一

Is one of the current Members of the Politburo Standing Committee.

他要利用她，把她當成工具，當成權力的獵手

He uses her as a tool, by performing as a power hunter, or the vulture of authority.

或者權力的禿鷲，這兩個角色

She has to be powerful.

她必須要有一定的影響力，是他們培養出來的，但那都是假的

They bring her up as such a powerful person. However, it is all fake.

您講媒體這個話題，就是說您在海外生活

You have talked about the media. I assume you understand the UK and the USA quite well since you

工作、經商也是很多年，非常瞭解英美這些國家

have been living, working, and doing business overseas for a number of years.

就是比較一下，英美國家這些媒體的獨立性

How do these two countries compare, in regards to the independence of journalism,

對商界，對有權有勢人物的監督

and the corporate and governmental influence upon the media there?

您認為有哪些特別不一樣的地方，還是有些相通的地方

What are the safeguards?

蒙克先生，我需要把胡舒立女士的事情說完

Mr. Menghe, I need to finish the story of Ms. Hu Shuli.

我希望觀眾都有一些連續性的理解

I hope audiences will forgive any breaks in continuity.

所以胡舒立女士的這些，你說在海外這些事件

I think the overseas issues you mentioned concerning

我感覺的就是一個悲劇

Ms. Hu Shuli are regrettable.

我看她在海外前呼後擁，所有媒體對她的尊重和給她的這些榮譽

I have seen her be the center of attention overseas, and the respect and admiration that follows her.

這就是回答你剛才西方的媒體

To return to your question on the western media.

西方的媒體也到了一個和時代必須要對接的時候了

The western media needs to connect with the times,

有很多方面的原因

For various reasons.

比如說，現在大家都關注的假新聞

For example, the fake news concerns everybody.

比如說現在，媒體也失去了大家想像的公正性

Like now the media is losing their impartiality, and yet no one is surprised.

甚至所謂的第四權力也好，這個監督性也不是像想像的那樣

Even the supervision of the fourth estate is not what has been expected.

這是為什麼我要接受當時明鏡採訪

This is why I accepted the interview from Mingjing Media.

因為我希望我的採訪不被剪接，是真實的

Because I want my interview to tell the truth, no editing, no misinterpretation.

那麼像《財新》這個事情，大家可以看得出來

So, the truth of the Caixin matter is plain to see,

它的真相就在那兒擺著呢

I’m sure everyone can see it.

沒有人去問說，胡舒立的企業是怎麼來的？

Is there nobody asking, how did Ms. Hu Shuli’s enterprise develop?

胡舒立女士的企業是靠什麼維持的，運營的？

How is Ms. Hu Shuli’s enterprise being maintained and run?

胡舒立女士的報導是真是假？

Is the news reported by Ms. Hu Shuli true?

比如說我，“權力的獵手”，我是怎麼權力的獵手了呢？

For example, “the power hunter”, how do I become a power hunter?

第一個，我從沒買過官方一塊地，我沒有利益輸送我啊

Firstly, I have never bought any piece of official land, I am not involved in any transfer of the benefits concerned.

第二個，我沒有在，沒有在中國賺任何錢拿出來，我是投資進去的

Secondly, I have never transferred any money I earned domestically to foreign countries, I invest only.

第三個，我投資了北大方正的事情，到今天為止

Thirdly, regarding the investment to Founder Securities,

我的成本投了大概180億

It has cost me around 18 billion up till now

我拿到所有手的股票18億股方正證劵的股票

Of the 1.8 billion shares of Founder Securities stock I have,

加一起還不到160億

Its value is not yet worth 16 billion.

所以說，我唯一和國營企業打交道的

Therefore, the only business I have been made with any state-owned enterprise, was concerning a certain amount

就是當時的民族證劵的一部分股權來自首都機場

Of stock of China MinZu Securitise, and this stock was from the Beijing Capital International Airport.

那麼到現在看，我已經是將近8年時間了，沒賺一分錢

It has been almost eight years, and I have never eared any money.

那我肯定是沒有利益輸送，那我怎麼成“權力的獵手”了呢？

That means I have no way to transfer benefits. How would I become “the power hunter”?

馬健副部長是唯一和我有關係的

Vice Minister Ma Jian is the only person who has contact with me

馬健副部長的案子馬上就要開審了

And the legal case concerning Vice Minister Ma will be in session soon.

大家可以看卷宗，和郭文貴半點關係都沒有

Please go and check the file, there is nothing relevant to Guo Wengui.

那張越，叫他們說的，跟我半點關係都沒有

Zhang Yue, according to what they said, there is nothing related to me.

我就是因為我是草根，就是窮人出來，一個算是成功的人

I am who I am because of where I came from. I achieved success despite my social background.

對這個有很深的血統論的胡舒立而言，她老以老舍的女兒自居

Hu Shuli is very concerned about Jus sanuinis (citizenship by heritage)

以自己是貴族而自居

She considers herself the daughter of Lao She and therefore a noble.

這是她的根本的出發點，所以她認為她是權力的那一部分人

This is her origins: she believes that she is part of authority.

所以像我這樣草根出來的人，就是她打擊的對象

I grew up in the lower classes and therefore become an easy target to strikes at.

而且，不用考慮後果，因為我沒有背景，沒有後台

Furthermore, there is no need for her to consider the consequences, since I have no political networks.

所以說你看，胡舒立報導我的時候

Therefore, you may have noticed, why there is no foreign media conducting research.

為什麼外國的媒體沒有任何去研究，她報導的是真是假呢？

over the report concerning me presented by Hu Shuli? Is her news true?

事實上，我今天要給你爆個料啊

Indeed, I have some things I would like to reveal today.

今天我這是，突然想起來的，胡舒立女士呢

As it turns out I remember that Ms. Hu Shuli manipulated the news concerning President Xi’s families’ property in the past.

我現在有充分的證據

I have sufficient evidence indicating

她主要是操縱了當年報導習近平主席家庭資產的，

她是幕後操縱者之一

that she was one of the hidden manipulators

所以，我認為胡舒立女士是一個政治的敲詐者

So, I believe Ms. Hu Shuli is a political blackmailer.

為什麼我這麼說呢？

Why would I make such a statement?

我再插一句，這是我們無法核實的一個信息

I need to interrupt you, we have no way of verifying your claim

我今天準備了一個資料，我現在給你出具一個資料啊

I have prepared some information for today,

I am going to provide you with the specific details.

這個文件的原件在我這裡

I have the original copy of the document here.

我現在可以送給您一份，這個是胡舒立女士，親自她自己的簽名

I can give you a copy now, this was signed by Ms. Hu Shuli,

你請看時間，2013年4月10號，她寫給習近平主席的這封信

Please take a look at the date, 10th April, 2013, a letter she wrote to President Xi.

這封信，我今天可以送給您

I can give you this letter today

我希望您在您的網上登出來

I hope you will you to put the letter on the Internet

這封信代表了什麼呢？

What does this letter imply?

胡舒立女士在操作了習近平主席所謂的家產報導以後

After Ms. Hu Shuli manipulated the “news” concerning the family property of President Xi.

造了這個謠以後，然後他又開始要通過我，把這封信送給習主席

And after she started the rumor, she would like me to pass this letter to President Xi.

你看到信中她寫的，無論是釣魚島事件

You can see from the letter that

無論是中美關係，她都想參與

She wants to involve in the Diaoyu Islands in the Sino-US relations.

我認為，這就像中國很多案子一樣

I reckon this is only one of the many cases in China.

這個背後有人製造了一個謠言，製造了一個

In order to allow the leader to put oneself in an important position,

often people will start a rumor.

對中央領導人的這麼一個故事，那麼同時呢

usually concerning state leaders

再告訴領導，我能解決，然後得到領導的重視

and then let the leaders know that they have the ability to solve that problem.

中國的很多大案、要案，就是這樣發生的

This is exactly how many of the big and important cases in China are established.

所以，胡舒立是一個政治敲詐者

Therefore, Ms. Hu Shuli is a political blackmailer.

當年她報導了魯能事件

At the time she reported the incident of Shandong Luneng Group

魯能事件它本身就是敲詐當時的曾慶紅主席

it was her intention was to blackmailed Mr. Zeng Qinghong, the former (Vice) President of China

這個很多事實是跟她報導完全不符的

Her reports were quite inconsistent with the facts

那麼誰讓她報導當時的曾慶紅主席？

So, who asked her to report on Mr. Zeng Qinghong, the former (Vice) President of China?

一定是有人讓她報導的，她不可能說出於媒體的公正性

There must be someone who asked her to do so.

那絕對不是這樣

There is no way that she did this because of the impartiality of the media.

因為，現在時間已經過去了

This is because, as time has gone by.

你沒有見過她再過報導任何一個國家現任政治局常委、政治局委員

have you ever heard of her reporting anymore on the Standing committee and members of the Politburo?

為什麼呢？因為沒有人在背後讓她去這麼做

Why not? Because nobody asked her to.

這些報導的內幕，包括一些政治內幕

These inside stories, including those of political nature.

我們作為一個媒體的一個猜測，郭先生已經爆了很多了

We as the media believe that Mr. Guo has revealed a great deal already.

我下一個問題是，像你這樣一個成功的商人

My next question is: The public considers you a successful businessman.

大家給你定位就是一個富豪，國內有媒體還說您是一個邪性的富豪

A billionaire, there is the domestic media that considers you an evil billionaire.

但你是不是說，你除了是一個大亨，是一個富豪

So, would you consider yourself both a tycoon and a billionaire?

你現在進行的這種政治爆料啊，這是一場政治上的聲討

What do you aim to achieve through revealing political secrets?

你要達到一個什麼目的？

In views of the fact that this could be a political condemnation

你怎麼看自己這個角色

How do you consider your role?

這個國內傳的兩個視頻，很有意思

These two domestic videos are very interesting

邪性富豪這個我看了，這個是挺搞笑的

I have watched the video about the evil billionaire and it is quite funny

我很驚訝的是，竟然以公安部的，戴著國徽出來在社會上播放

According to the law of china, my case is in progress

按照中國的法律，我這個案件還沒有完

Therefore, I was shocked that these videos were released in the name of the Ministry of Public Security and state emblem

如果說，沒有完的案件

It may be considered that any messages released

公安部出來播放任何資訊都是犯罪的，這是犯罪的。

by the Ministry of Public Security concerning cases that are in progress are illegal. This is illegal

另外一個，它絕對不真實，按照我的邪性富豪，它說了11個人

Another point is that this is faked .11 people are named according to the evil billionaire video, however

其中史發亮的案子跟我一點關係都沒有

Shi Faliang s case is not relevant to me

王友傑的案子跟我一點關係都沒有，馬健的案子肯定會跟我沒有任何關係。

Neither Wang Youjie s case, nor Ma Jian’s case.

我沒有任何實行犯罪，到現在為止，沒有任何指控我犯罪

I have never been involved in or been charged for any illegal practices until this moment

那麼其中，我弟弟那個事情更是假的

The case about my younger brother is fake news

我弟弟是被喝醉酒的員警給打死了

Drunk police officers beat my younger brother to death

打死以後還不讓醫院醫治，在26個小時以後流血死亡

They didn’t allow doctors to save him.  he died from loss of blood over a period of 26 hours

當時，把我關了十幾個月，還在我這個腳上紮了死刑鐐

They locked me up for more than 10 months, and had me in shackles (for the death penalty) which weighed 26kg

26公斤死刑鐐，戴著死刑鐐，在我腳脖子上

And they handcuffed me. They put them on my ankles for 8 months

戴了8個月，我在那裡被關了18個月

I was locked up for 18 months

(那個，還可以看到)還可以看到

（can we still see it）we can still see it

那麼，這個邪性富豪，按照它的邏輯

So according to their logic, this evil billionaire:

第一， 如果因為我，所謂家人的死亡或受傷

Firstly, the reason my family died or was injured was because of my evil nature

不是中國的非法員警搞的，那是因為我的邪性帶來的

Not the illegal police

那麼毛澤東主席，他一家人最後都是殘死，那毛澤東就更邪了

then the entire family of the President Mao Zedong died tragically, then president Mao would be the one who is more evil

那劉少奇家人為他，也是死的死，亡的亡，抓的抓

the family of Liu Shaoqi was either dead or arrested

他本人也是死那麼慘

Liu himself died tragically as well

他也是，那他就是邪神了

He would then be the most evil

鄧小平先生家裡面，遭受的挫折更大

Mr. deng xiaoping s family suffered from even more frustration

那小平同志那不就是，那更成了邪神了嗎

Does this mean Xiaoping is the evillest?

包括我們現在的習近平主席的父親，習仲勳先生

Mr. Xi Zhongxun, the father of President Xi Jinping was put in jail several times

一生多次被關，家裡人更慘啊，按要他這個定義

and his family suffered even more. According to this definition

中國共產黨的高層領導大多數都是邪性的

Most of the higher officials of the communist party are evil

何況那是事情根本不是事實，我是被害者

I am indeed the victim, not to mention the above are not facts

所以說，這樣的事情竟然在中國國內廣泛傳播

However, such rumors are widely spread in china

在公安部的國徽之下去傳播，這是個悲劇

Spread with the emblem of Ministry of Public Security, this is indeed a tragedy

這完全是違法的

This is entirely illegal

那您現在要幹的這個事情，除了你這個爆料

So, what is your long-term goal in the future by revealing such secrets

你要往以後看，你要達到一個什麼樣的目的？你想看到一個什麼樣的效果

What do you hope to achieve?

現在因為咱們這個國內呀，我要爆料的人，要分清楚

Because of our country, I will make it clear whose secrets I want to reveal

我爆料的不是這個國家，不是這個黨，也不是這個政府

I am not revealing the secrets of this country. Nor this party, not this government

我希望這個政府越來越好

I hope this government would get better and better.

我希望共產黨發展得越來越健康

I hope the Communist Party develops into a healthy party.

我希望這個國家越來越強大

I hope this country will get stronger and stronger.

就是因為這個，我認為我今天爆料的這些政治局委員

Under this context, I think regarding the people I have spoken of today (and their secrets), these Politburo members.

包括傅政華先生，包括下一屆常委，他們都是綁架了國家機器

Including Mr. Fu Zhenghua, and the next Standing Committee members, they are responsible for kidnapping this country.

是綁架了習主席

They kidnapped President Xi

利用習主席的這個反腐運動

They exploit the anti-corruption campaign launched by the President Xi.

那麼這個事情，很大的一個危機對中國

This is very risky for China.

我爆料的目的就是要揭穿他們

My aim is to reveal secrets and to expose the truth.

同時實現我的個人利益，就是說，保錢，保命，報仇

And to accomplish my personal interests in the meanwhile, which are securing my property, my life, and my revenge.

更重要的事情是，我想推動依法治國，希望能依法反腐

What is more important is, I would like to put forward rule by law and fight against the corruption in accordance of law.

就說您現在希望要做到的，已經超出了你個人的報仇啊

In other words, what you are hoping to do right now is beyond revenge......

一定是這樣子的，我深信在海外

That’s right, I believe that there is around one to two trillion of assets involving.

他們這些貪官的資產大概在一兩萬億人民幣

These corrupted officials overseas

同時，我希望能幫助未來把在海外的貪官的資產

I wish to bring these assets back

未來能給拿回國內去

To the country in the future

讓我們這十三億人還有很多吃不起飯的同胞們

I hope that our 1.3 billion compatriots, including those who are suffering from starvation.

能應該拿回屬於他們的錢

can eventually have their money back.

這是非常非常重要的

this is extremely important.

而且通過我的接下去的爆料，我能預測到

I am aware that I am revealing secrets at considerable

會給我的家人和我帶來很大的風險，甚至是死亡

risk to myself and my family, including death.

我也做好了一切的準備

I have prepared myself well

但不管如何，我都會走下去

I will keep on going no matter what

那您是一個個人，當然您是一個和普通人不一樣的個人

You are a man, different from the ordinary people, you are powerful.

您的力量也很大，但是還是一個個人對整個一個（政權）

Still, you are just one man against everything else

這個是的，北京的領導給我打電話，昨天和前天都打電話

Yes, that’s true. The leader from Beijing called me yesterday and the day before that

說文貴你這是螳螂擋壁（螳臂擋車）

He said that I am like ‘a mantis trying to stop a chariot’

你這就是自取滅亡

Which means digging your own grave.

我說，你說錯了，我一個螳螂擋臂沒問題

I told him that he was wrong.

13億個螳螂擋你這個壁，一定會把你給蹶折的

If a mantis cannot do much, then how much, then how much can 1.3 billion mantises do? This will definitely pull your wall down.

他說，那走著瞧，我說：咱們走著拭目以待

He said ‘then we will see.’ I replied so let’s wait and see.

13億之一，您是一個比較大的一個螳螂

of those 1.3 billion, you are a comparatively larger mantis.

我覺得關鍵是，接下來我希望能喚醒所有十幾億人

I think the key is to awaken the 1.3 billion people.

I hope I can do it.

大家都應該為自己的尊嚴，和自己的利益

People should stand up and fight for their dignity, interest and rights.

和自己的權利吧，都應該站起來，不要老趴在地上

Stop lying on the ground.

不要捂著耳朵，不能蒙上眼睛

Clutching your ears and covering your eyes.

因為我的今天，就是所有人的明天

This is because what is my present, is everybody’s future.

特別是中國的私營企業，我的今天資產，家人

I am talking about the private enterprises in China specifically.

員工受到如此的淩辱，如此的威脅

My assets, family and staff were insulted and threatened.

中國那個私人企業，你能保證你不是下一個郭文貴呢？

Which private enterprise in China could guarantee that they will not be the next one to be treated as Guo Wengui?

我們只希望依法治國，治理的治，依法治國

We are simply hoping for rule by law.

中國有法制，但是你得依法治國，不能以人治國，不能以黑治國

China has a legal system, but you have to have rule by law instead of rule by people, or rule by gangs.

那麼現在我們這些私人企業在中國，每個人都很害怕

The private enterprise in China, like us, are very afraid nowadays.

所有私人企業家都告訴我說，他們最害怕的就是

Many private entrepreneurs have told me,

每天去機場，就是安檢那一塊兒

The security check was what worried them all day whenever they went to the airport.

還有回國的時候，在過機場安檢的那一塊兒

The same situation applies on the way back to the country at the airport.

所有的企業家都是遑遑不可終日

All entrepreneurs are worrying all day.

這樣的中國經濟會好嗎？

Would this benefit China’s economy?

這樣的中國經濟即使好了，那也是將付出巨大的代價

We have to pay a huge cost even though China may eventually have a strong economy.

因為人們都不安全，人們都沒有尊嚴

This is because people are not safe, people lack dignity.

所以說我的目的就是要找回屬於我的公平

Therefore, it is my goal to retrieve my own justice.

找回所有像我這樣草根的這些的人，發展到今天基本的權益

The ordinary rights and benefits for

還有我們應該有的一些安全感

The lower social class and the security we are meant to have.

我認為中國到了這個時刻了

I believe China’s time has come.

中國一定會崛起，中國一定會騰飛

China is going to rise and soar.

但沒有這個保證，中國即使騰飛與崛起，也一定是災難

However, even without the guarantee of rule of law, it would be a disaster for China even if it succeeds.

你是把自己看成一個有使命感的

So, are you consider yourself a man with the sense of purpose?

我當然啦

Of course, I am.

我在海外的控制的基金資產是一千億美元

The overseas fund under my control is a hundred billion US dollars.

這是巨大的

This is huge.

我真的不需要去掙錢了

There is no need for me to earn even more.

我跟我的所有合夥人都說，我未來的絕大多數時間

I have told all my partners, I will spend most of my time working

都會為了中國的依法治國

On bringing the rule of law to China in the future.

為中國的不公平事件，我去爭取

I will fight for the injustices in China.

這是我的主要工作了

This is my priority.

我希望我的財富，把我的財富花到為中國人民，中國同胞們

I hope the Chinese, especially those of lower social class like us, and the private entrepreneurs,

特別像我們這些草根，還有私營企業家們

Could benefit from my wealth, I hope there will

少一些郭文貴的這種家庭、員工的這種災難性事件的發生

be less tragedies like those of my family and the employees of Guo Wengui.

這將是我主要的爆料的目的

These are the ultimate goals of me keep revealing secrets.

你說自己這方面的報負，讓我想起了美國富豪索羅斯

Your aspiration reminds me of George Soros, the American billionaire.

他也是用自己的財富要實現，要實現改變這個社會

He attempts to change contemporary society at the cost of his wealth.

做一些事情，您覺得這個類比恰當嗎？

Do you think this is an appropriate analogy?

我，非常不恰當，我不舒服

This is not an appropriate analogy, I feel uncomfortable with it.

我不喜歡這個比喻，他老人家，我很尊重

I don’t like this analogy, though I respect Mr. Sorts very much.

我覺得中國需要索羅斯這樣的惡人物

I think China doesn’t need people like Mr. Soros.

在中國像我們這樣的人，去跟政治對抗

People like us, we fight against polities, for changes in China.

或者想著去改變，這真的比螳螂擋壁（螳臂擋車）還誇張

It is even harder than “a mantis trying to stop a chariot.”

我們想做和能做的事情，必須可以有理想

What we plan, and what we do, it must be driven by ideals,

不能理想化，更不能有幻想

But not be out of reach. It must not be a fantasy.

我們今天能做的，最基本的

What we are working on at the moment is very fundamental.

希望這個國家別把我們這些私人企業家當豬養

We are simply hoping that our country doesn’t treat us like it treats its pigs.

就是把你養起來，然後就把你殺了

That is to say, you will be killed when you are fat enough.

不准你說話，然後把你肉給你吃了

You cannot voice otherwise or else we will kill you for meat.

我就希望我們這些私人企業家

I wish the private entrepreneurs, like us,

或者這些草根老百姓們，連豬狗都不如

And all those general citizens, would not be treated like they mean nothing.

那我希望能得到起碼人的尊嚴，起碼的安全感

I wish to fight for human dignity and a sense of security.

這是我說我要爭取的

to lay groundwork so we can live as ordinary human beings.

索羅斯先生要做的事情

What Mr. Soros is working on is revolution,

那是跟國家權利的對抗和改變，是革命

which is to fight against state authority, and fight for change.

那我覺得，第一個，中國承受不起這樣的事情，也做不到

I think, firstly, China cannot afford and cannot do the same thing.

另外一個我也不這麼想，我認為中國現在還是不能亂

Secondly, I do not agree to do so, I think China still needs to remain a stable entity to a certain extent.

習主席是一個千年不出的偉大政治家

President Xi is a once in a generation politician.

他非常危險，因為他很孤單，很孤獨

He is in danger because he is lonely and alone.

他周圍我不相信，不超過十個人，是他真正信任的人

I believe there are less than 10 people he can trust.

很多人利用他在反腐，來去綁架了他

There are so many people using and hi jacking him for the anti-corruption campaign.

那麼他作為國家的最高領導，他有很多難言之隱

As a top leader, he surely has a skeleton in the closet

我認為我的呼籲，能讓他聽到更多底層的聲音和真實的聲音

I believe my voice appeals to him, as mine is the voice from the lower classes, and so the true voice.

這已經足夠了，我非常有信心習主席會給我這樣的公平

This is sufficient. I am confident that President Xi will provide me with such justice,

會讓中國走向依法治國的時代

and lead China to the age of “rule by law”.

謝謝

Thank you